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I’m
thinking the experiment won't work otherwise.
Get rid of comment count, too.
Removing the "Most Comments" sort was a good first step, but I find I'm still being (unfairly?) influenced by the comment count under the 140-character product description. I came late to the garage brief and notice that the more comments there are, the more likely I am to scroll down to read them....
Promoted
Response
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Hey guys, back from vacay and jumping into this thread! I'm understanding the main argument for eliminating comment count is to prevent people from only going to the ideas where the most comments are, is that right?
It feels like everyone's worried that people are coming to Quirky for the wrong reasons, and eliminating comment count is one of the ways to discourage those people from gaming the system. But it also sounds like it's a useful feature for legit Quirks. This idea is on the table. We just need to think it through from the perspective of what serves our real community members, instead of making changes defensively.
The key to making lasting changes is to look at the whole picture. Step one in our efforts to evolve the Quirky process, is our Voting Survey. I won't lie, it's a lengthy one. We want to capture every part of how you go through eval, and use that data to improve. We've come a long way, and we want to keep going. Tell us what it'll take for you to stick with us, frustration-free!
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I’m
confident
I agree......Comment -
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1I agree.
The experiment 's results will be hard to interpret.
(For example: If there isn't any apparent difference between these results and previous results, is that because the comment count has no effect on the results, or because voters simply scrolled down the list looking at the comment count display?) -
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I’m
ok
I like sorting the ideas chronologically, because it also helps me to make sure I get through all of them. I wish there were a feature to sort by Oldest, though, because it seems odd to only give a priority search to the last minute submissions.
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Disagree.
Comment count is a convenient way to know if comments have been added to an idea I'm following. (When I filter by Ideas I've Commented on)
Useful for those community members who go through and rate a significant number of ideas.
Do away with comment count, but give me another indicator of activity.- view 2 more comments
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My biggest wish was that within the: 'Your Latest Activity' section of: Your Account/Activity/Overview
...either a comment count was placed there next to each one of my comments, or... some sort of recent activity indicator.
Hey Quirky... put the comment count in that blue speech bubble within 'Latest Activity!! -
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Good point. I've been missing the "last commented on" sort for a while. But it is another way of "gaming"...hmm.
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I’m
thankful
1I agree with this and I think something that might help along this line is to maybe only allow the ideator of any submission to comment once a day on his submission. They can still respond to any comments made and direct them to the appropriate people using @whomever. This will take care of any ideator padding of their own submissions but still allow them to interact with everyone who has left a comment.
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I'll definitely think about making this a part of the experiment. But in general, I'm wary about removing tools that make it easier for people to engage in conversation about an idea. This is a social product development site, emphasis on social. If no one knows where the conversation is, how will they participate? Will they? I want to discuss this more.-
I think it all depends on how you define the "conversation." As long as you allow a sort to help people find ideas others have already weighed in on, you're steering the conversation. Imagine being at a party, talking to an interesting person. Some folks join in. It's fun. You move to another group. You mingle. Now, imagine the same party, where everyone has apps that allow them to track other conversations -- who's there, what they're saying. You don't want to miss out (especially if there's money involved!). You look over your shoulder. Should you go over there? Are you stupid if you don't? And maybe the people you're talking to -- who a moment ago were really floating your boat -- aren't the "best" people.
With comment counts, you're essentially funneling more energy toward particular ideas. You're assuming that's because those ideas are inherently better or more interesting. And sure, sometimes it's because an idea is good. Often it's because the idea is controversial, well-rendered, well-positioned, or by someone who (for whatever reason) is well-liked on the site, perceived as someone who can win, or plays "the game" well.
By providing comment count, you are effectively PREVENTING other discussions that may be equally fruitful.
Comments beget comments beget votes. And I think it's skewing your data. -
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I’m
confident
@Jessica Like you said just make it an experiment and when the results are in then you and the Quirky team will have data and so will the community and that means we all have the necessary information to make the best decision:}
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I’m
frustrated
This is a social product development site, emphasis on social. If no one knows where the conversation is, how will they participate? Will they?
Your wrong! This is first and foremost designed to facilitate and provide general market research data and information.
From the TOS!
Welcome to quirky.com, a web site that lets users submit product ideas for feedback from the Quirky community of Users (the “Community”). The web site is first and foremost designed to facilitate and provide general market research data and information to individuals or entities that submit a product idea.
You sell data and people submit there ideas to get it. yet you want only the the people with popularity to get the data? IE>Most comments and most comments link on influence page. Sounds kinda scammy to me. -
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@Anthony very well said. Thank you for your comment.
@Jessica conversation about any given submission can be reserved for the forum. IMO the comment section of the submissions should be to convey "Comments" to the ideator regarding likes/dislikes, suggestions, issues, etc. in an attempt to help the ideator improve their submission or decide if they should post it again later if it doesn't move on in that round.-
I disagree, but not entirely. There needs to be conversation space, but I think the forums are too disconnected from the curation (evaluation) process. I didn't make my way to the forums the first couple weeks I participated in this site. I submitted a proposal to help with this exact problem. Comment count can stay, but user perception of comment count changes.
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Hey guys, back from vacay and jumping into this thread! I'm understanding the main argument for eliminating comment count is to prevent people from only going to the ideas where the most comments are, is that right?
It feels like everyone's worried that people are coming to Quirky for the wrong reasons, and eliminating comment count is one of the ways to discourage those people from gaming the system. But it also sounds like it's a useful feature for legit Quirks. This idea is on the table. We just need to think it through from the perspective of what serves our real community members, instead of making changes defensively.
The key to making lasting changes is to look at the whole picture. Step one in our efforts to evolve the Quirky process, is our Voting Survey. I won't lie, it's a lengthy one. We want to capture every part of how you go through eval, and use that data to improve. We've come a long way, and we want to keep going. Tell us what it'll take for you to stick with us, frustration-free!-
I'm so frustrated! I get why users like Most Comments. What I don't get is why Quirky wants to encourage/reward users to take less time evaluating and voting.
Of course users like it: The most-discussed ideas most often wind up in the top 5-10. Thus we'd be stupid not to the sort if it's available -- if we care about earning influence and $$.
But why does Quirky think funneling more people to fewer ideas out of the gate is the way to "bubble up" the best projects?
At the very least, wait until the last three days to put up comment count, and award more influence to people who rate and vote early. That will answer the needs of people coming late/with little time but not screw dark horse ideas from the get-go. -
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Please don't be frustrated. I swear we're not ignoring how some people use the comment count. We just want to weigh all our options before acting. Our goals are the same. We want to make the very best products, based on the very best ideas!
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I am totally behind the idea of attracting new Quirkers, and a Quirky experience that is easy, fun, and social.
(Not because I'm such an "easy, fun, social guy" -ha, but because I see that a huge community will solve many of Quirky's current growing pains.)
I am also totally behind the idea of the QS being able to rely on the results of the community vote when they choose a product.
In fact, I would love to see the day when the community vote is such a trustworthy predictor of what the market will do, the community makes the choice (with the staff simply vetoing ideas because of technical reasons).
But which one is more important?
What if those two ideals (Quirky as a social place and Quirky as a product selecting place) end up conflicting with each other in some way?
In my opinion, if the two ideals conflict, Quirky making good product choices is more important than Quirky as a social place.
So, do they conflict with each other?...specifically, what role does "most comments" play?
Two sets of facts to keep in mind:
1. What people vote for (ie, the reasons they vote) will be what the voting system measures.
2. People will vote for three things or reasons:
A. Merit
B. The person
...C. Self interest
So, the voting system is measuring merit when people cast votes for merit.
But the voting system is measuring self-interest or popularity of a person when people cast votes for those reasons.
Since Quirky doesn't want the vote to tell them how popular the submitter is, or how many people think they will get something for casting that vote, the fewer of those votes the system is measuring, the better.
Quirky will make better product choices if the voters only vote for merit (ie, not for self-interest).
But what is the role of "Most Comments"?
"Most Comments" does a great job of allowing people to see where the buzz is among the submissions.
And that's a great social tool.
But an unintended consequence of "Most Comments"?
It allows people to make a fairly accurate guess of which idea will win.
In another GS thread, http://support.quirky.com/quirky/topi...
Anthony compiled a list of the winners, and compared it to comment counts.
As of December, 2010, 69 of the 79 non-wildcard winners were also in the top 10 for number of comments for their round.
People who are voting for self-interest can use "Most Comments" to easily tell which idea will win about 85% of the time.
All they have to do is sort by most comments, then vote for the first page.
But do many people do that?
Because of the wildcard vote by the staff, we have the blessing of being able to compare the community's vote to the staff vote.
While the community has a lot of motivation to vote for self-interest (influence %), the staff has very little (they get nothin', no matter how they vote.)
How do the results of the two votes compare?
Well, of the 35 votes taken from the first of September to the first of January, the winner of the staff vote has also been in the community's top 5 once.
Let me say that again.
Of the 175 submissions the community voters with the motivation of self-interest put into the top 5, the staff voters without self-interest matched 1.
Votes for self-interest is making a huge impact on the results.
And the role of "Most comments" has a double whammy.
Not only does it make it easy to guess which idea may win,
"Most Comments" also concentrates those votes for self-interest down onto a small group of the submissions.
The result has been a solid "borg" block of votes that overwhelm the votes for merit.
So, do I think Quirky being a social place and Quirky making great product choices conflict with each other?
Not necessarily.
But I do think one of the current features Quirky uses to make Quirky a social place has unintended consequences...
...the harmful effect of "Most Comments" on the vote.
So, as much as I recognize the value of "Most Comments" to the social side of Quirky;
because "Quirky making great product choices" is more important, we can't use it.
But that doesn't mean we can't find other things that are just as fun!
(And maybe that's a key idea.
Instead of the community simply saying "stop using 'Most Comments'", maybe we should put our thinking caps on so we can say, "Lets do this great thing instead of 'Most Comments'").-
Hey Clinton, is that how you welcome me back? ;P
I want to keep GS very targeted so that each thread remains focused on the original idea, problem or question. With that in mind, could you pinpoint the core idea within this response (I'm reading it as a Better Ways to Encourage Social Development type of idea) and start a new thread? That way, we foster really productive conversations with items that the team can act on! -
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Thanks Clinton!
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